- Return to Princess Twilight Sparkle - Part 2
Inconsistency between episode 1 and 67[]
Transcripts/Friendship_is_Magic,_part_1 legend narration of book Twi is reading:
- One fateful day, the younger unicorn refused to lower the moon to make way for the dawn.
- She vowed that she would shroud the land in eternal night.
Transcripts/Friendship_is_Magic,_part_2 post-imprisonment NMM:
- you will never see your princess, or your sun! The night will last forever!
Transcripts/Princess_Twilight_Sparkle_-_Part_2:
- Lunda: There can only be one princess in Equestria! And that princess will be me!
- Celestia: You must lower the moon! It is your duty!
- Nightmare Moon: I have but one royal duty now: to destroy you!
The legend Twi read in episode 1 states that Luna refused to lower the moon. The vision Twilight sees in s4e2 has Celestia dictate to Luna that she must do her duty (a duty Celestia was able to perform in Luna's absence).
Twi's vision does not depict a direct verbal refusal from Luna to Celestia's command, however her ignoring that statement and proceeding to attack Celestia could be interpreted as an indirect refusal of that command, so the legend does not deviate from this in any meaningful way.
However... the legend states Luna made a vow. The vision lasts until Luna is zapped into the moon, at which point she was no longer able to speak and make vows.
We do not hear Luna/NMM make such an "eternal night" vow in Twi's vision.
Does any proof exist that she ever made such a vow prior to her imprisonment?
NMM made a similar vow AFTER her release (basically paraphrased), but a thousand years can change a person.
I believe that the words used in this vision do not indicate Luna ever made such a vow, although I don't think Twilight (indoctrinated with hero-worship as she is) picked up on the inconsistency.
We know Celestia is able to perform the moon-lowering duties. This was not an exclusive power of Luna. If Luna would not lower the moon, Celestia could have done so herself. She was able to do both jobs simultaneously for centuries so lowering the moon ONCE would not be beyond her abilities.
So if all Celestia wanted was the moon lowered so that the sun could rise... why was she telling her sister to do it?
Why not instead plead "Luna, you must let me lower the moon!" or "you must not keep the moon in place?"
Celestia did not ask Luna to stop actively doing something (either holding the moon stationary or impeding Celestia from lowering the moon). Instead, she commanded her to actively do something she was capable of doing herself.
The words Celestia uses in this vision do not appear to be those of a pony concerned with bringing sunlight to the land, but rather, of someone bringing her little sister to heel and forcing her into obedience.
Luna's actions, and her violent acts as NMM could be perceived as self-defense (prior to the vision, Celestia might have attacked Luna to force her to obey and do her moon-lowering duties), or at least, an outburst of rage towards someone who would not share the spotlight (the celebrated sun-raising position that made ponies adore you as the primary deity).
Nowhere in this pre-incarceration vision does Luna actually communicate a desire for the moon to stay up for an extended period (much less eternally), but instead, ignores a command that SHE be the one to do the lowering job. This is a very distinct difference since Celestia was capable of doing that duty she insisted upon her sister doing instead.
With Twilight being too goddess-blind to notice this and Celestia (be she corrupt) having an interest in keeping it secret, who else is left to notice this problem? Twi doesn't communicate the entire contents of the vision to her companions, and Luna has been mind-wiped by the Elements of Harmony.
This is apparent in her Canterlot Wedding lines:
- Luna: Rest, my sister. As always, I will guard the night.
"As always" indicates a lack of awareness... does Luna consider the thousand years she spent jailed as NMM in the moon as her "guarding the night"? Or does it indicate amnesia... that she doesn't even remember what was done to her? That she doesn't even remember rebelling because the EoH mind-wipe removed her rebellious memories and inclinations from her brain?
Even if Luna viewed NMM as a separate person, she should still not consider herself to have always guarded the night, because she would not have been doing so during the NMM imprisonment period.
Something interesting to consider.. does Luna have any dialogue occurring after Canterlot Wedding pertaining to the NMM period? If she does, why would she speak to her sister as if she did not remember the NMM imprisonment? Could she have had temporary amnesia as a side effect of the mind-wipe? Or could she be feigning amnesia out of fear of Celestia acting against her if Celestia was aware of Luna remembering the injustice done to her? talk2ty 23:13, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
So how does Sunset Shimmer come into play? Could it be that NMM/Luna reached out to her and revealed the truth about her adoptive mother which is what caused her to turn against Celestia? If, then congratulations, Sunset you chose the right side. Welcome the Rebellion. --Nighlocktheawesome 11:23, September 27, 2017 (UTC)
- This provokes a few thoughts in my mind-simply my interpretation of this speculation and the episodes/material involved. You seem quite pleased with the whole Evil Overlady Celestia concept you've presented, and more power to you if you actually feel that this is the case. However, I would say my thoughts on the matter-which again is merely my interpretation of the material-is as follows:
- First off, can't say I buy the whole "Celestia adopted Sunset Shimmer" thing you've proposed-it's an interesting theory, but what information we have on them doesn't seem to suggest anything of the kind. As to the inconsistency, it could be merely that, an inconsistency; however, we have no indication that Luna didn't make such a vow prior to the confrontation between her and Celestia. In fact, I would say there's evidence in favor of Luna having made some challenge or proclamation prior to the scene in Twilight's Kingdom, which may in fact have prompted Celestia to seek her out and confront her. Celestia's citing of Luna's duty to lower the moon was, by all appearances, a call to repentance-an effort to convince Luna to abandon her rash and dark course. The fact that she COULD lower the moon doesn't mean that she wanted to; besides, it's entirely possible that she wouldn't be able to do so if Luna resisted her efforts before being banished to the moon by the Elements of Harmony.
- Celestia and Luna's relationship is complicated by the fact that they're not just sisters, they're royalty: they've accepted that role and with it comes responsibility. Celestia's words are addressed to that: Luna is refusing to lower the moon in service to her own desires and rejection of her responsibility to the ponies of Equestria. By seeking to persuade Luna to do that, she is giving Luna the chance to reassume that duty and make amends. The fact also exists that Luna has the moon Cutie mark, not Celestia; logically it makes sense that doing so is her destiny appointed by whatever powers that be in Equestria, and I hardly think Celestia would be interested in taking that from her. Of course, I also don't have the "Alicorn=deity" view that is harbored by some fans-they may be immensely powerful and revered, but it's quite evident that there are powers beyond their own, both in terms of understanding and sheer might.
- As to the idea that Luna was "mind-wiped" by the Elements of Harmony, I don't see the evidence for it-she was cleansed of the dark magic that her own bitterness invited in which caused her original transformation into Nightmare Moon, in my opinion. As for the whole "As always" think from Canterlot Wedding, I think you're stretching it. Canterlot Wedding has a definite sense of taking place quite some time after the events Friendship is Magic, so when Luna says "as always" I would say it's become part of the routine of things. I would also say that her making a statement like that is evidence of her remorse, as seen in Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep? For that matter, it's interesting that she declares she will "guard", not "rule"-makes it seem apparent that she and Celestia have returned to their old co-rule, in which neither of them owns the day or the night, though each has peculiar responsibilities.
- By the way, it's nice to see someone taking such active interest in the Speculation forum. --Kilmarnock228 (talk) 07:44, September 28, 2017 (UTC)